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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 588
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Western Armenian Reply with quote Back to top

Hello Everybody,

I have a question to all Western Armenians, perhaps you know.

Several days ago I suddenly thought about that, and it was very strange not to found out a logic answer to that.

How the such called "language" Western Armenian was born? I mean - saying Western Armenians (Diaspora Armenians) I understand not one ethnic group of population. It isn't secret that in this group were entering many many dialects that was existing in W.Armenia.

I know also that Armenian has 67 dialects, 36 of which are nowadays exist in Republic of Armenia. So the others were W.Armenian dialects (or perhaps more, as some dialects now in Armenia could be brought by other Armenians from W.Armenia, for example - Sasunians in Talin). So how it can happen, that W.Armenian (Diaspora Armenian) in Canada, for example is speaking in the same (or almost the same) dialect such called "W.Armenian" dialect as W.Armenian in Egypt, for example...

If they all tought Armenian in Armenian Churches in very places, then it's OK, I can understand, that everybody is teaching the same dialect, but as far as I know many are teaching the language from their parents or grandparents who brought it with themselves from MotherLand.

Thank You for attenition and future answers.


A R A Y J M
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Sakollo



Joined: 20 Nov 2003
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

nice topic....
Up to my knowledge (although I have to review some resource) the langusitic development that has segregated the Armenian language into to major parts east and west has flurished from the literary circuit and the high class bourjouazi armenians of Bolis. This languistic revolution has started in the begining of the 19th century 1800st and that period is called ZARTONKI KRAGANOUTIOUN and an evidence of this is the language used by michael nalpantian, bedros tourian and followed up by hagop baronian taniel varoujan krikor zohrab and the rest of the authors. notice the difference between the above mentioned with hovhannes toumanians raffis...

Thus all the newspapers in Bolis and all the literature was written in Western Armenian. However,I still beleive that this has been developed over years to come to this stage as is the case of any other language.

There are two major differences besides the structure the phonetic prnounciation and the Dictation.
with regard to the phonetics I personally believe that the eastern is more accurate (although a bit rough) one example is "pen" is pronounced "p" in western and in eastern it is pronounced as "b" in all the alphabets around the world the second letter of the alphabet is promounced as B then how come in western it is P
regarding the dictation notice the eastern dication that was used by raffi and toumanian (books printed in diaspora in eastern armenia) it was the same as we use it now in western. During the Soviet union formulation it was required from the armenians to change the structure of the dictation.
Thus the dictation of the current Republic of Armenia is not the accurate one it is the continuation of the structure forced by the soviets (sorry I don't recall the reason behind it)
I don't have the exact number of dialects but that sound reasonable and I couldn't beleive that we had that much...but a proof of evidence is that I come from MOUSA LER and we have seven small villages that have seven different accents and specific terms used for each village....mind you overall all mousa lersi over the globe count to 20000 from which only 2000 live in Anjar (10000+ have remigrated in 1940s to armenia) the all armenian village in Lebanon and 7 subvilages talk with different accents until now..
choutsis Aghvouris ? that's inchbes es laves?
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iminhokis
Wizards


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

wow !

thx sakollo !
 
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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 588
Location: Earth

 PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sakollo,
Thank you.
The information you brought was really interesting.

A R A Y J M
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jgm1975



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada

 PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It is normal for languages to have dialects. But the Western Armenian - Eastern Armenian division is also fermenting a cultural division, namely Diaspora Armenians on one side and Armenians from Armenia on the other. For a small nation not to even agree on when we say "D" or "T" is quite sad. I think that there is a way to reconcile the two languages and have a single one:

http://www.geocities.com/jgm1975/Language.htm
 
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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 588
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

jgm1975 wrote:
It is normal for languages to have dialects. But the Western Armenian - Eastern Armenian division is also fermenting a cultural division, namely Diaspora Armenians on one side and Armenians from Armenia on the other. For a small nation not to even agree on when we say "D" or "T" is quite sad. I think that there is a way to reconcile the two languages and have a single one:

http://www.geocities.com/jgm1975/Language.htm



Jean-Gregoire I find your site interesting.

Please, wouldn't you tell whether the information posted there is your own research or ideas or you were using any other source.

And, else, I would love to know how you find possible to "reconcile the two languages" as you mentioned in your answer?

Thanks
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jgm1975



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada

 PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

Thank you for the interest. The information is based on well known historical facts (such as the changes to the vowels bought by the "Russification" attempts) some research and of course some ideas. Very little or no external sources are used, as I did not wish to simply relate other opinions.
Regarding the question of "how you find possible to reconcile the two languages". I am a little confused about the question. Perhaps I used the wrong word. By "reconciling the two languages", I meant reforming the Armenian language to have a single one, which is what I explain on the site.
In short, the pronunciation of Eastern Armenian must be used (except for the vowels, since the ü was transformed in a yu), while the writing style of Western Armenian (more in line with Mesrop Mashtots' style) must be used, because it was not affected by the attempt by the Soviets to eliminate the particularities of the Armenian writing style (such as the fact that "hee", 21st letter of the alphabet, can be an "h" or a "y", something unique for a language) as a first step to assimilation.
The Jews reformed the Hebrew language in the 19th century when they realized that the language was suffering due to foreign influence. The Turks adopted the Latin alphabet in the 20's to modernize the language. I think Armenians need also to do the same. But because of economic problems in Armenia, not a lot of people seem to care about this issue. Armenians are unfortunately notorious for petty in-fighting and counter-productive factionalism, even abroad, and this language difference is not helping. One less barrier, one less source of division, is already a step in the right direction, especially when it comes to language which is at the core of any culture.
Does this answer your question, or were you asking about the actual steps that would be necessary to bring language reform?

Thanks.
 
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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 588
Location: Earth

 PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you for your answer.

I was interested in both your answers (question considering to your sentence, as I was confused because of the impression "reconcile the two languages" and the potential steps in this sphere).

I agree with you in many things and agree about some russification. In Post-Soviet space many republics had also changed their alphabets from cyrillic into latin (i.e. Azerbaijan, the countries in Middle East etc.), but these were alphabets that were not changed once but "invented" under the Soviet rule comforting the russian alphabet for the language.

If there is such a question, I think not only the orfography of Eastern Armenian and speech of Western Armenian need to be changed.

We were living long centuries under the control of the others and were communicating to the nations living arround mainly by the language of the ruler (mainly - turkish). Afterwards even now we use many turkish words in daily speech even without any idea, that it is not Armenian word (so common it may became). Now in E.Armenian spoken language there are also many russian words coming to us by the similar way as once turkish.

May we consider that if we tomorrow join with China and Japan (for example) in one republic and main language is chinese, in couple of years we will begin to use also many chinese words. I think we can assume this. So now, with the same psychology, the things should work vice-versa, that is Armenia is independent so all the words and the names should turn into Armenian usage (which is actually spreading in population of E.Armenia slowly for the moment, BUT spreading).

Returning to your answer, wouldn't you tell how you think the things should work for joint orfography and speech rules for the W. and E. Armenians.

Consider also that in this case all (or almost all) the literatural, historical, scientific and other (mainly for the school usage) books should be retyped.


Thanks
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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

...I forgot to continue my idea, that along with the linguistic improvements there is a need also to develop a methods for "clening" our language from strange words, phrases and names, as much as it is possible.

My idea is mainly about the spoken languages (for both E. and W. Armenians).

This improvements could be as by serious so by humouristic.

For example, after Soviet Armenia, in independent Armenia old names of many many towns and villages etc. had been rechanged to real Armenian ones. In despite of this people in main still continue to use the old ones by habit. You can amaze but even there are still some places the citizens of which (or of the next places) still use the old old turkish names, they are not so many but anyway.

Against of this in many places for changing this habit some methods had been developed.

For example in Armenian town Vayk (Soviet - Azizbekov), after rechanging the name into Vayk, there were something like humoristic bet in between of people. People were walking around and suddenly asking to each other "where are you from?". If one by mistake answers "from Azizbekov" he/she need to pay the penalty. Several time ago people completely stopped to use the name "Azizbekov" in everywhere and many even forgot this. Now everybody everywhere uses "Vayk". But many other old names are still exists even for the big cities (for example - not "Vanadzor" but old "Kirovakan", not "Gyumri" but old "Leninakan" etc.).
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jgm1975



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada

 PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hrant wrote:
We were living long centuries under the control of the others and were communicating to the nations living arround mainly by the language of the ruler (mainly - turkish). Afterwards even now we use many turkish words in daily speech even without any idea, that it is not Armenian word (so common it may became). Now in E.Armenian spoken language there are also many russian words coming to us by the similar way as once turkish.


Yes that it true. This applies to a lot of other cultures as well. Persian has a lot of Arabic loan words, English has a lot of French loan words, but many of the linguistic issues have also been self-inflicted. Armenians are unfortunately notorious for the petty factionalism that Turks, Soviets and others have found so convenient to exploit. This has translated in divisions in the religion (two Catholicosates) and divisions in the language. If we Armenians were more united, we would have been less vulnerable to attempts by foreign powers to assimilate us and pollute our language. This factionalism continues to this day and is discouraging many Armenians from being Armenian. This linguistic divide is certainly not helping.

Hrant wrote:
Returning to your answer, wouldn't you tell how you think the things should work for joint orfography and speech rules for the W. and E. Armenians.

Consider also that in this case all (or almost all) the literatural, historical, scientific and other (mainly for the school usage) books should be retyped.

Good points. For the first question, it will have to be a matter of teaching the next generation the right Armenian (not Western Armenian or Eastern Armenian, but simply Armenian). So in schools, when Armenian is first thought (in Kindergarten for example), let's teach people the revised Armenian language. In about 20-30 years, that will translate into significant progress. I do not think that the Armenian Church can contribute to this, because the Church itself is factionalised (two Catholicosates). Rather, the Armenian government, specifically the ministry of education, should engineer this, and if Diaspora "leaders" have any sense of patriotic duty, they should follow suite. I must admit though, it is not easy. With so many social and economic problems today in Armenia and the world, nobody cares about this. But it is a threat to national unity, and hence a gift to the enemies of the Armenians.
For the second question, I do not think that old books need to be thrown away. Everything gets re-printed at some point, so they would simply be printed in the new revised language. After all, when Armenia adopted the distorted orthography in the 1920s, it did not take long for all manuals to be in that writing pattern.

As for the names of the towns, I think it is a good step that they changed them. But even there you see an example of the problem. What Armenians in Armenia refer to as "Gyumri", Diaspora Armenians refer to it as "Kümri".
 
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wizard
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Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:41 am    Post subject: Abstract Reply with quote Back to top

I think this is an ever again resurging question. We have here some good elements to prepare a nice documented answer. Maybe someone could prepare an abstract of this topic with some references and then we'll put in on the "Armenia" pages.

Who's volunteer ?

Wizard
 
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jgm1975



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada

 PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Wizard,

When you talk about "the "Armenia" pages", are you talking about the following link: http://www.armenian.ch/%7Earmenia/Pages/E/main.html ?

Also, has anyone volunteered? If not, I can, if that is OK.
 
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wizard
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:30 am    Post subject: Wonderful ! Reply with quote Back to top

Wonderful !

Then prepare a text a send it to me ( g-waw@armenian.ch ), I'll format it and install in under
"Armenia". Many thanks for your contribution !

Wizard
 
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Hrant



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 588
Location: Earth

 PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:47 pm    Post subject: Teachers from Armenian Diaspora and Armenia should have sing Reply with quote Back to top

Teachers from Armenian Diaspora and Armenia should have single educational system


Teachers from the Armenian Diaspora and Armenia should have single educational system, as Hranush Hakobyan, the Chairman of Armenian Parliamentary Commission on Science, Education, and Youth Affairs stated when receiving 50 teachers from the Armenian Diaspora. She said that Armenia hold educational reforms and the Diaspora also should be aware of them.

Hakobyan proposed introducing disciplines of Grabar (Ancient Armenian) as well as Western Armenian in order to remove difficulties of communication among Armenians from the Diaspora and Armenia. “This is complicated but a solvable issue”, she considers.

Hakobyan reported that the State undertook responsibility of training those teachers from the Diaspora who teach history, language, culture. “It is hard to preserve tradition without Motherland”, she said.

50 teachers from various countries attend professional training courses in Yerevan on August 4-27.

160 teachers have been trained in Armenia during five years.



© Arka

www.hayastan.com
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jgm1975



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Montreal, Canada

 PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

This is an interesting piece of news that you are bringing. It is good you posted it. I thought I was the only one who was advocating language reform to eliminate this Western Armenian - Eastern Armenian issue and further unite Armenians worldwide. Many Armenians that I communicated with had a "so what" type of attitude towards the issue. Now at least I can show them that others think this way as well. The person's name is a classic example of the problem. In Western Armenian, her name would read "Hagopian", while in Eastern Armenian, her name would read "Hakobyan". The right way, as far as my humble opinion is concerned, should be "Hakobian".
 
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